Tomorrow

Update will be tomorrow. Ended up getting bored and adding a new attack and some other stuff so I still need to finish programming the H animation and new enemy.

In the meantime, I'm trying to think of ways that stamina can be restored mid-combat. During testing, I just find that waiting for stamina to go back up breaks the flow too much . Som ways I've considered are:

1. If a sweet spot attack is landed with your last sliver of stamina, stamina is restored.
2. Every time you attack an enemy with a weak hit, it fills up a "second wind" meter. If the bar reaches max, stamina is restored, rewarding the risk of attacking without stamina.

The first one I will try is 2. Any other suggestions?

In general I've also been messing with the specifics of combat a little. With the last update, I realized I was slowing things down way too much, at least considering the game's simplistic state atm. I'll be trying to limit "unfun" stuff a little more, and instead give enemies more options, rather than weakening the player too much.

I'm also still thinking about controls a lot. With the cat, I added a new attack, and I'm realizing more and more that using up and down for block and dodge is far too limiting. I want more moves and I need buttons for it, or button combinations.

Anyhow that's all for now. Back to work.

27 comments:

  1. Maybe only have the attacks cost stamina if they whiff. Either that or simply have stamina reduced if an attack lands. That way players are encouraged to actually get in there and fight, but are punished for not attacking intelligently. However, encouraging this playstyle also leads to the issue that the player has WAYY too little health and the enemies have tells that are way too fast to react to. In other words, the combat system has some improving to do.

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    1. Hmm, I don't think I would do something like that. I think that for the most part, the player will usually be hitting. If a player is spamming attacks, then they would be running out of stamina anyway. Less stamina drain per hit means that players who are already hitting would be getting more out of it, without any additional risk.

      On the other hand if attacks only take stamina if they hit, then it would lead to spamming, and would reduce the need to time stuff.

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  2. how about some stamina recovery item?
    When you press a certain button/stamina runs out it consumes one of said items and refills your stamina.
    That way you can either fight slowly and carefully, rationing your stamina or fight aggressively at the cost of resources.

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    1. I actually really like this idea. Though, I find a problem with combat consumables that cost resources. Many people will never want to use the item in fear of wasting them. This makes those people play more conservative than intended. I would build on the idea by making the consumable have a cooldown or ammo system that replenishes at home. Allows players to pick and choose their moments to play aggressively without that "I wasted resources" feeling.

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  3. Maybe reserve stamina for blocking, dashing, and heavy attacks but not light attacks. Then buff heavy attacks (more damage or add stun or something) so that spamming light attacks isn't more powerful than utilizing stamina.

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  4. How about a rage/super/second wind/whatever bar that fills up as you do damage and depletes rapidly when not attacking, the reverse of the stamina bar. When stamina runs out, the rage bar is used as if it was stamina.
    You still gain rage, but more is spent than gained. So weak attacks would be of use, since you'd gain enough rage after 2 or 3 weak attacks to do 1 normal attack.
    That way aggression is rewarded, weak attacks are useful and you basically have a lot more stamina to use before tiring out. But then stunlocks might be a problem since weak attacks allow you to get a stunning attack, thus incentivizing mashing the attack button. Though that's same as option 2.
    Or maybe make special, repeatable abilities or combos use rage, like hadoukens and any other move that'd otherwise be spammed. One of those could be a half-second "restore stamina to full" move.
    The problem with attacking without stamina is that the enemy isn't stunned and you can't parry, which means you'll have to back off to dodge if you don't wanna get hit, so might as well restore stamina since you already wasted a second.
    ATM the cat does plenty of damage with weak attacks, but enemies can't die unless they're stunned. Is that intentional?

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    1. I don't think that really makes much sense, since not attacking already fills stamina. If the player has stamina, there is no need for the second wind.

      In option 2, the idea is that it's risky to attack while at 0 stamina because there is 0 hitstun, and because getting hit with 0 stamina knocks you down. Therefore attacking while in this state is risky, and rewarding it is an option.

      Initially I considered making it so enemies can't die unless they receive knock-back, however I recently changed my mind, and so it will be different in the next version.

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    2. The rage bar was more about efficient combos. Doing more damage gives you a bigger effective stamina bar. And it lets weak attacks be useful, since they don't cost stamina/rage, but they fill up rage, thus restoring stamina.
      About option 2, like I said the problem is that it's either not risky or too risky, depending on how many attacks are needed to get back full stamina. Hard make it both worthwhile and balanced.
      Let's say the cat attacks an enemy and spends their whole stamina. The enemy takes damage and is stunned the whole time, they can't do anything. And then the player tries to get second wind with weak attacks.
      If it takes too few attacks, less than the time it takes for the enemy to respond, then the player gets their full stamina back and can stunlock the enemy forever.
      If it takes too many attacks, the player will have to back off. Since the enemy's attack frames last a certain while, and the player has to jump or walk away (can't block or parry), the player has to spend a second or two away from the enemy.
      To make it worth it, the amount of attacks to get second wind need to be more than the former case, but less than the time it takes for stamina to recover. Since enemies are all different, that's gonna be hard to balance.
      The cat has a reason to try and keep attacking at least, since she has that attack speed buff. But the regular PC's attacks knock the enemy so far it's hard to even land a second hit unless they're backed up to a wall, basically has to chase after enemies after hitting them. And weak attacks are way too slow and risky.
      IMO the simplest way to fix it is to reduce the stamina recharge delay, I think it's too long ATM. In Dark Souls, for example, it starts almost as soon as the attack frame stops.

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    3. In case 2, basically what would happen is this. (with arbitrary time)

      Attack enemy, stunlocking them. Stamina runs out, and it will take 5 "time" for stamina to begin to recover, and 10 for it to refill. Attacking at 5 leaves them with no stamina since it resets the delay

      Now with second wind meter,

      If the player attacks the enemy for 5 "time", stamina instantly recovers. The enemy will usually attack during this time, so the player will almost always have to dodge at least one attack, but the result is starting to attack again at 5 time rather than 10.

      The human player can't be used as an example yet since she will be overhauled, and will have different attacks than what she has now. "tired" attacks will also probably not be slow the way they are now.

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    4. Yeah, what you described is what I thought. I like the idea, I'm just saying it might be hard to balance.
      In the current version, the goblin is already stunlockable by attacking as soon as regen begins, though it takes a bit of timing (and is very boring). And in your example the regen time and the second wind time are the same, enabling ez stunlocks.
      On the other hand, if it takes too long the risk-reward ratio might not be worth it. Especially when considering that dodging takes time, during which regen will start.
      In any case, I think the cat would benefit from that type of mechanic to keep the speed buff up, so there's no harm in giving it a go. Even if it doesn't work well for the normal PC, it could be the cat's "thing" - non-stop attacking and dodging.
      Maybe add stunlock immunity to all entities (both player and monster) regardless of where you go with this. Getting stunned for X consecutive hits or seconds gives immunity for a second or so. That'd fix all future hypothetical stunlock problems.

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    5. Second wind by nature does not lead to stun lock, since you need to attack with weak attacks. The enemy will always have time to attack once before second wind fills and restores stamina. (enemies also recover faster once they land, in the upcoming version)

      Weak hits will not be the same as they are now for the human player in general. They will likely maintain their normal speed and (probably) damage. The super slow attacks will only happen when you run out of energy (top right bar).

      Stunlock defense would be something like: If an enemy is "not" hit during stun, then breakout meter fills. Then when the enemy is hit with this meter full, they counter,parry, dodge, etc. That way it will not activate if the player is attacking constantly, which will always lead to the enemy being able to attack.

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  5. How about making "parry" replenish some stamina?
    Simple, doesn't slow things down too much, can be applied to any character, rewards good timing.

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    1. It already does, actually. (in the prev version where the human is playable.)

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  6. Could reward basic setups with stamina gains.
    Small example being: Launcher into aerial confirm = Stamina+

    Also dominating succ for overcharged stamina bar, post H.

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    1. I think that it's probably too easy for the player to do the same setup multiple times for that.

      The H side of things, it will probably be a while before enough of the mechanics are in place for it to have gameplay effects. Plus, the goal is to make it so gameplay can go without stopping, and H takes longer than waiting (Even if it had some sort of animation skip.)

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    2. I was thinking it wouldn't proc until the singular aerial lands, so positioning and precision would matter in the meantime.

      But fair do's.

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  7. is there going to be multiple saves where each save has a different/randomly generated layout, like say save one has a desert that where you spawn at and save 2 is a snow biome.

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  8. What about making parries restore more stamina, but just on the first parry? Then making consecutive parries restore no stamina until so many seconds have passed? That way it rewards good defense in short bursts, but doesn't make it easy to abuse rapid short parries.

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  9. Maybe landing critical hits can restore a little amount of stamina which could work as a percentage like most games (you can rise it through item upgrades, equipment). Or if cooking becomes a thing you can cook food that restores stamina and place it in a quick use slot linked to a key for dynamic use in battle. Or maybe some risk-reward ability like losing a little HP for stamina restoration. Another idea that comes to mind is that maybe when stamina is low (10-0%) you can hold a key to restore it quicker than just standing doing nothing. Maybe at the risk of being vulnerable while doing so. Another idea maybe is some kind of weapon that fully restores your stamina if you do a kill. Can be useful when in harder areas of the game that have more powerful enemies, or with bosses that spawn enemies. Maybe this can be an natural ability that some female beast characters posses too, like some carnivorous behavior. I don't know if this ideas are ideal for the kind of game you are aiming for, but here you go, and thanks for your hard work as always Kyrieru!

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  10. I'm totally unaware of how combat works, but you could do something like parrying restores stamina.

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  11. Well...you can remove the stamina bar and let players pick the pace they prefer. I don't think you'll have much problems designing monster attack patterns despite the player having or not a stamina bar (although without it the game will gain speed).

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  12. How about with a block/parry mechanic? when you block an attack at the very last minute, you regain a portion of your stamina. In that way, you cant go infinite with your attacks from repeatedly hitting sweet spots and it makes more of a challenge.

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  13. maybe a add a sweet spot to the parry mechanic you have that restores stamina

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  14. "perfect parry" giving a burst of stamina seems like an obvious answer but can be hard to execute all the time for some players.
    A slow regen when defending while not taking a hit may help newbies trying to get out of when they get surrounded.
    Agaisnt some ennemis a "clash" mechanic nullifying the action if you attack at the same time may work too (unless they go for a heavy attack you can't clash against).

    All in all, that kind of 'technical play" rewards could be implemented to fill the "second wind" instead if you implement it. There's quite a few ways to handle it.

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  15. In my opinion, I think parry is too strong as it is. I would like to see parry cost stamina every time you block an attack (maybe scaling with damage blocked). A perfect parry could cost no stamina and maybe have some return damage. I think a trade-off between dodging backwards (its free but unreliable for some attacks) and blocking (reliable but at a stamina cost) is a good idea.

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    1. Scratch most of what I said haha. I just realised parry in the previous versions do cost stamina. It has been a while.

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